Member recruitment: data quality, needs and follow-up

Frode Stenstrøm: Attracting new customers, new members, is an eternal challenge for Norway's organizations. And I've been wondering how this can be done in the best possible way. I've brought Eirik and Thomas into the studio to share their knowledge with us. I ask them to answer which prerequisites need to be in place, the most relevant tools available, and how this can best be organized. My name is Frode Stenstrøm, and this is Prosesspodden. Eirik, I know that you have extensive experience from OrgSys, as it was before, and the Norwegian Sea Rescue Society. What are you most passionate about? Eirik Sørmeland: I think my main cause is good data, data quality. With integrated data, you have a very good foundation for ensuring that members, customers, and your own employees have a good experience in everything they do. Frode Stenstrøm: Thomas, I know that you have extensive experience with several types of CRM systems and deliveries. What are you most passionate about? Thomas Tellefsen: I'm passionate about a great many different things. But if I were to highlight something personal, it would have to be the people. I get to work with them out there. And being able to help influence what those people's everyday lives are like, and getting to experience the results of the work we put in, and the joy that comes from delivering good solutions, that's really what gets me out of bed in the morning and off to work. And then, in addition to the human aspect, I really like helping my customers understand themselves. And making things simple and clear and intuitive. Frode Stenstrøm: The first topic is the prerequisites that need to be in place for us to be able to acquire new members at all. Eirik, what do you think are the most important prerequisites that need to be in place to even begin using the tools we have? Eirik Sørmeland: If I were to highlight a few things, I would first say that you should have a plan for what to do with the new members once you get them. A welcome journey, for example. Acquiring new members is expensive, so use a portion of the budget on that. We tend to think that what we really want is more members, so don't forget those you already have. The organization should also be set up to engage in cross-selling and upselling and that sort of thing. And then again, as I mentioned initially, data quality, integrated data, and this classic 360-degree view that people talk so much about. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, I mean, I think an organization must first and foremost know itself, right? Many of these organizations have been around for many years, and there are all sorts of management practices and routines that they may have forgotten to renew and review in the past. Over the years. What is actually important is to have a strategy, a plan for what you actually want to achieve. Not just, “We need to acquire more members,” because everyone wants that. But if you have a plan and develop a strategy for how to achieve that plan, then you're better equipped to succeed. There are two distinctions among membership organizations. There are those that are open to anyone who wants to join, and then there are those that are only for their own target groups. And what I'm generally thinking about in relation to DISTO is that you simply have to dare to be a little unique and differentiate yourself. Because there are far too many solutions out there that are exactly alike. They just have different logos and, in practice, the same functionality at the same time. That's what they offer, and then it's a little difficult to stand out. Frode Stenstrøm: But Eirik, you mentioned good data instead. Could you elaborate on that a little more? Eirik Sørmeland: Yes. I mean, in my world, data is basically the foundation for everything you do. Yes, it is. By that, I mean that you have up-to-date data, correct data, integrated data. You often have several systems that each have their own things, so tie it all together, and in addition, make sure you have control over duplicates. So a person only appears once in the system, not multiple times. I think that's necessary because it gives you the basis for making good decisions. If you have poor data, you may think you're making good decisions without actually having done so. As I said earlier, you get better member experiences, meaning fewer complaints, increased loyalty, and hopefully better or longer retention. It frees up time in the organization. Which can be used for other fun things instead. Frode Stenstrøm: Data quality, regardless of whether it's a membership organization or a regular company, is a perpetual source of challenges. Who should maintain the data, Thomas? Thomas Tellefsen: That's a good question, Frode. Traditionally, organizations have thought that they should maintain their own data and ensure their own data quality. But today, the possibilities are much greater. For example, you can connect to online services to clean and update it. You can buy lists. Or you can actually... Invite your own members into a dialogue and get them to update their own data themselves. That's much more common today than the traditional approach where you yourself are responsible for the company's own data. Frode Stenstrøm: We'll talk a little later about organization, which is also a prerequisite for the whole thing, but I thought we should start by looking a little at communication. And all communication depends on a good message. What role does your marketing material play, Thomas? Thomas Tellefsen: If you had asked me a few years ago, I might have said that it's important to have a good newsletter for everyone. It's important to have a Facebook page, but that may no longer apply in practice. Perhaps you should have this as well. But... Most members today want information tailored to their interests, through the channels and at the frequency at which they themselves want to receive information. The era of mass communication, where only parts of the content are relevant, is over. Figuring out how to communicate with members at the frequency and for the target groups and interests they have is key to figuring it out, but of course we know a lot about how to... Approach that data collection. Frode Stenstrøm: You're touching on something there: it's about moving from mass communication to one-to-one communication. Eirik, then I think perhaps this data quality issue comes into play, because it's hopeless to send lots of questions to people. And then you say, “Hello Saturday,” because that's what it says in the address register. That's good. Eirik Sørmeland: Yes, that looks great. Frode Stenstrøm: I've tried one like that. Eirik Sørmeland: I've also heard that people have merged in these free-text fields, and they've written internal comments about customers who have called and complained, or something like that. Things can go wrong quickly, Kjørnt. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, things get heated. At any rate, that's not how you should do it. No. Let's say a few words about the tools. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, I mean, you can do this in several ways, and the traditional approach is to have a digital presence, such as a website, a blog, posting things on social media like Facebook, X, Instagram. That's really perhaps more of the backbone for building a brand, attracting attention to products and services and things like that. But that's perhaps a little more general, and people may be increasingly immune to that kind of general marketing. Even though there should be a small base in place there, you should think a little more innovatively. For example, you can try to reach members where they actually are. That could be local activities, events, or even better, if you manage to engage your members to actually create content and activities that can in turn attract existing and potential members. Then it's also, in a way, a somewhat cost-effective way to create relevant content for everyone. Frode Stenstrøm: Meaning that members themselves contribute to content production? Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, correct. That's right. We have some examples of that in our portfolio, where... Where arrangements have been made for the local chapters themselves to create events, where the members themselves have devised the entire agenda. Frode Stenstrøm: And then you also get decentralized content production. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, absolutely fantastic. And then you reach people much more effectively. And of course, when it comes to collecting data, it's also about understanding what members actually care about, in order to better target the dialogue you want to communicate. And then, for example, you can also let potential members subscribe to information. It's very common to sign up for a newsletter, but let them say a little more about what they care about, and how often they would like to receive it. information, is it the case that you would prefer email, would you like SMS, would you like push notifications if you have an app, are there other ways you would like us to communicate with you? I know some also send letters or physical media There are lots of different options. Like welcome packages and things like that? Yes, for example. There is no definitive answer, so it is case by case. Frode Stenstrøm: But with the use of artificial intelligence, you can let members describe themselves in five or six sentences, and then you can use artificial intelligence to process what is written there and get members' intentions. And then you can get a completely different level of data capture than by just clicking and filling out a web form, for example. So I can see that both in customer onboarding and in customer communication, these tools can be used much more, to a greater extent than ever before. Because now they have become good at language. How should we use the methods Thomas is talking about here? Eirik Sørmeland: Yes, that is a very good question. I don't really think there is a definitive answer. You have to look at the individual organization and which target groups it has. For example, if you are trying to reach young people, then perhaps Facebook is no longer the channel to use. It has become more where the older crowd hangs out. TikTok may be where the young people are, or there are probably others that I haven't even heard of. Frode Stenstrøm: No, we saw that in last year's municipal election. Some parties chose to promote themselves on TikTok and gained voters from it, while other parties chose not to. My 19-year-old sons couldn't care less about Eirik Sørmeland: Facebook. Yes, that's where their parents are, so they don't want to be there. Again, to continue with that, the content you produce will be very different for TikTok and Facebook. So you have to try to take into account who you are actually talking to. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes. But does Norway's organizational sector actually have the knowledge and expertise to produce content for TikTok, for example? Because content production for TikTok is completely different from content production for a traditional website, for example. Eirik Sørmeland: I know of an organization that had two boys working a summer job, traveling around Norway and producing content for a TikTok channel. It generated a lot of buzz, and it created a great deal of content. Positive vibes, and they also won some awards for the work they did that summer. It doesn't have to involve such a massive production effort to make it happen. Frode Stenstrøm: I think we have a generation below us that is growing up with reels and is used to editing things together on their phones at breakneck speed. And using young people as a tool in marketing communications, and reaching the right age group—I know that at 51, I don't appeal to a 17-year-old kid. Thomas Tellefsen: It doesn't really feel right that we are sitting here like three old wise men talking about young people. Frode Stenstrøm: It takes me back to a bygone era. I remember what it was like. I remember when I was young. But Eirik, you are now quickly getting into what I would describe as a form of marketing strategy, that is, how to reach the different target groups. Eirik Sørmeland: Now, that is not exactly my core expertise, but I have been involved in some of it. So it is about looking at which channels you should use; there are often different channels for different target groups, so you have to be somewhat conscious of who you are actually talking to, and where. There may well be a difference—we are really talking about gaining new members— it may well be that your existing members, whom you know a lot about, are not the same as your potential members. So you have to try to do some research and get data on both target groups, and then adapt accordingly. Frode Stenstrøm: But do you have an example of how data quality has been important in relation to these marketing communications and the methods we have now discussed? Eirik Sørmeland: I have been involved in cases where, for example, you know which boat a person has, and then you can... Tailor the communication based on that, so it is actually very simple. But let's say the person you are writing to has a sailboat; okay, then you focus on sailboat-related communication. Or they may have a small or large motorboat, and you can differentiate in many ways there. That was data they had internally that was readily available. Frode Stenstrøm: That example of yours about using information about boats, other assets and the members at the same time, isn't that very complicated? I mean, doesn't that place major demands on the underlying system infrastructure, or is it more a question of what is needed to achieve that, or get there? Eirik Sørmeland: Of course, you do spend time getting the good data in place, but our experience is that the investment you make at the outset in putting the structure in place pays off over time, because you avoid so much confusion, nonsense and hassle along the way. Plus, it opens up opportunities to do those kinds of things, which improve the results of quite a few different campaigns, or whatever you are doing. So I think it is well worth the money invested to make that commitment. Thomas Tellefsen: I completely agree. I think that the plan and the long-term strategy are often underestimated, as is thinking through how we should build the system's foundation so that we do not lock ourselves in now or in the future. Frode Stenstrøm: So the advice here must be that when creating the data model that will support the marketing communications, it must be tested against marketing communications, but also insights and analysis, so that you have a data model that stands the test of time. Because technology comes and goes. The data model on which you base the organization is probably fairly static over many years. All organizations have a limited budget for sales and recruitment. How can organizations make the best possible use of the limited resources they have, Erik? Eirik Sørmeland: Yes, that is an interesting question. I mean, we are going to talk about member recruitment here, but I would like to bring up sales to new versus old or existing members. My contention would be that organizations spend too much of their budget on bringing in new members, and that they should have shifted some of it toward managing and treating their existing members better. I completely agree. And then you increase their lifetime. But the problem is often that measuring these things involves two very different things. We measure how many new members you gained. You can do that on the day, all the time. You know, okay, today we got five, yesterday we got seven, and so on and so forth, and then it all adds up. It is very motivating to see, because you get it immediately. If you are going to measure whether you have increased someone's lifetime, that involves things that stretch over several years. And it is also difficult in terms of KPIs internally within the organization, because it is often short-term results that people chase in LVN. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, yes, and then you have to distinguish between whether they are active or passive members. A member paying the membership fee is not necessarily, in a sense, valuable to the organization's reputation, but ideally you want members who are also promoters of what it actually does. Absolutely. Frode Stenstrøm: But you are getting a little into this question of measurement now, aren't you? Being able to actually measure the value of both new members, old members, and the costs of using the different methods? Eirik, how can organizations actually make the best possible use of the limited resources they already have? Eirik Sørmeland: Yes, I think first and foremost that you must not only look at member recruitment. Do not forget the existing members. So my contention is that organizations in Norway spend far too much of their budget on bringing in new members. Some of it should probably have been shifted to the existing ones, because ultimately it only helps so much to bring in 15,000 new members a year if you lose just as many, so try to increase their lifetime value. And then there is also the issue of measuring this. It is harder to measure that you are increasing the lifetime. It takes longer. New members—you can basically count them by the minute as they come in. At least, you should be able to do that. But if you increase the lifetime, you may see it in one year, two years, three years, four years, perhaps ten years from now; you see how long the person you gained today has actually been a member. It is a bit slow-moving and not as exciting to pursue and work on as gaining a new one. Thomas Tellefsen: Speaking of measurement, I think there is very little focus at measuring the cost of an investment. If you run a campaign, for example, there is very little measurement of the cost and benefit of the campaign's effects. Those who are really good have a plan and an annual cycle of marketing activities, and how they are going to attract new customers. Perhaps doing that, as you say, Erik, does not include how they are going to plug the gaps and stop customers from leaking out at the bottom. But those who take it one step further have actually also thought about how much money they put into the campaign, and perhaps set an expectation for the result, and then they forget to look at it. So looking at that as well, comparing those two things, and then prioritizing where you actually get returns, I have yet to see that as good practice among many. Eirik Sørmeland: You must not forget to actually record where the lead comes from. I mean, coming from the website, you may be able to track that, but if it comes from some campaign that has run some links to the website, those are things you should know in order to measure this. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, perhaps you should look at the big picture, because recruitment does not often come as a result of a marketing activity in isolation, but look at the big picture, so my advice would be to say that we measure each individual input factor, because that is easy to do: what did it cost to run that campaign, what did it cost to run that seminar? And then you have to look at the overall result, because you can see that too, and then you can see whether the activity is going up or down, because if you look at the total investment across all the investments you make, and then look at total earnings, you can see whether you are going up or down, or whether you need to increase the input factors. Once you have come that far, it is easier to start prioritizing the measures again, I think. Yes, absolutely. You can think, okay, email worked for us, and it is cheap, so we can use it. But perhaps we should personalize it more instead of stopping that mass mailing. Another factor, I think, in this picture is agencies. Being able to use advertising agencies or communications agencies also has a fairly known scope and a known cost. And here you can also set up, for example, a reward model. A great many appointment setters, for example, use meetings and are paid for a number of meetings they secure for the client. So it is possible to prioritize, and prioritization has to be done. The key must be that we actually measure from the start, and do not just speculate. And I think far too many marketing departments I meet do not know. They have done it this way for years, so we will continue doing it this way for years. Thomas Tellefsen: It is so easy if you have just thought from the start or at some point along the way that we need facts about what we are doing. You cannot just have an opinion about it. I just get annoyed that more people do not think that way. Frode Stenstrøm: But it is probably, I think, a matter of expertise, plain and simple. There is a lack of understanding, and that is not so strange, because I usually say that the historical explanation for most things in the world is that there were people who were damn good at one thing 10 years ago, and then the world changed. And no one was talking about TikTok 20 years ago. What role do membership benefits play in that? Eirik Sørmeland: It is a somewhat boring answer, but I do not think there is any definitive answer to that. What is important to one organization's member may not be equally important to another organization's member, so it will vary greatly. Generally speaking, there are probably two drivers at play here. There are rational drivers and there are emotional drivers. You join because it is important to me, it may provide value for money or be perceived as useful. Or you have the other group who do it because it gives them a good feeling and they contribute to something. Or perhaps it gives them a sense of pride and those kinds of things. But here, membership benefits may not have as strong an impact on potential members as on existing members. So this is a bit of a jungle to navigate, and there is probably a reason why it is a field of its own, really. So we simply have to try to conduct surveys, find out about this target group, perhaps benchmark against other similar organizations, and gain insight into what is important to our target group, and then try to set our course based on that. Frode Stenstrøm: But then we are talking about relevance in more than just the offering. But I am a little intrigued by what you said about emotional drivers, because I actually think that may be the strongest tool you have. People who otherwise identify with a political party do so because they want to support that party and show that they vote for that party. People who give money to the Norwegian Society for Sea Rescue or the Red Cross want to support an organization they believe in, the social mission those organizations carry out. I feel that those organizations are bigger than myself. To a very small extent do I feel that they use the emotional bond. It is often rather tangible things: if I join here, you get this or that bank rate, okay, I think about that once, but it is not something I think about afterward, and therefore I become a passive member. Eirik Sørmeland: You often see the emotional aspect much more clearly in the organizations that have regular donors and donors and engage in fundraising. There is a completely different form of communication in what they send out to their donors. So it might be interesting to apply that more to members and see what effect it has. Frode Stenstrøm: This matter of membership benefits, Erik, is, I mean, relevant for... Being able to attract new members. But I also know that organizations lose members. Thomas, why do you think they lose members? Thomas Tellefsen: There are many reasons why you lose members, but statistically, you lose members because they do not feel valued. There are many reasons why someone may not feel valued. It depends greatly on the organization, but this may have to do with, for example, how communication is handled: that it is too general, that it is too frequent, or it is too long, it is in the wrong format, the wrong channel—the list is long. I also think that losing members may have something to do with Norway's organizational sector being a bit stodgy. They have not made the changes that the market actually demands. This matter of being original, innovative, doing things differently. It is like Norway is all plain brown bread, and everyone has the same content. And no one has seeds on top or cuts any cool patterns into the bread. That was a great comparison, by the way; I am very proud of it. You should think through the services you offer: are they exactly the same as those of all similar organizations? Are the activities we offer exciting? And then we should not just think that we as an organization believe it appeals to our members; you should actually know that the members find it interesting and want it. And even if it is what we offer now, is this really something that the members perceive as cost-effective? I think a great many become members because they get good services, for example affordable insurance and banking services. But if they are going to stay for a long time, you have to spice it up with much more tailored information and content. Frode Stenstrøm: But then you quickly get into another relevant tool, which is network collaboration, where one organization sells membership through another organization. I know that many such trade unions do this: if you are a member of the trade union, you also indirectly become a member of other organizations that provide free legal aid, or whatever it may be. Do you have any faith in those kinds of tools, Erik? Eirik Sørmeland: It can be a good tool. Not only organizations selling for other organizations, but also perhaps companies in the same industry that are involved in something that is relevant to the membership you offer. So it is about reaching the right customers in all the forums they are in, and at the touchpoints that exist. So it may be worth the time you spend on it. But again, you just have to measure it and look at the costs and what you get in return. Frode Stenstrøm: When we talk about the network model, I think there is a parallel to Norwegian business, where you have a partnership selection model for customer, or direct sales to the customer. Would you advise Norway's organizations to use both the network model and direct recruitment, or should they choose one? Thomas Tellefsen: It is quite clear that you need to have a plan for how you want to communicate with the different target groups, and if you want to mix these things, then you probably cannot follow the same strategy. You should probably have two separate strategies there, and it is probably different people and departments that will work with the different target groups. So as for whether you should mix them or focus exclusively on one, I would say that if you work with both, you should focus fully on each of them, or just focus on the one that is most profitable. Frode Stenstrøm: Moving on, we are going to look at organizing expertise, and I am wondering how you can organize your resources. There is often a discussion, for example, about whether to use an agency or not to do this, or keep the service in-house. Thomas, what experience have you seen among your customers? Thomas Tellefsen: We always recommend having a plan. Do not just guess from the outset. Make a plan. Make sure that plan is backed by people who have the right role and responsibility, and, not least, the time to do the task they have been given responsibility for carrying out. If you do not have resources with the time, you need to consider whether these are services that should be purchased from external suppliers. One example is getting help from an agency that specializes in user experiences and interaction. I have had nothing but positive experiences in the cases I have been involved in where such agencies have been part of the picture. You should also work systematically. Regular meetings, regular evaluations, and so on. Measure and evaluate. Without measurement and evaluation, you will not be able to improve and change and start this cycle over again. Frode Stenstrøm: But Erik, you also have quite a lot of experience here. What is the pattern among your customers when it comes to, for example, using an agency or not using an agency, doing everything themselves, outsourcing it? Eirik Sørmeland: I do not think I have seen anyone do everything themselves yet. There is clearly a big difference in how much people do themselves, and some do almost nothing, while others do mostly everything themselves, but hired help handles a much narrower specialist field, in a way. But I might highlight, that is, telemarketing and outbound telephone sales; they are very often outsourced. Frode Stenstrøm: But what do you think about insourcing vs. outsourcing such services, Erik first? Eirik Sørmeland: I have become a strong advocate of doing those tasks yourself. By that I mean that you have full control, and that you can work more systematically with the processes surrounding it. Outsourcing is of course convenient, but you often incur a hidden cost later when you have to start synchronizing data, and you do not get that good old 360-degree view of customers without a lot of hassle. And perhaps you end up in a situation where every time you need to run campaigns, you have to keep retrieving data, having it cleaned, matched and updated across the board. And all of this costs an awful lot of time and money when you have to do it on a regular basis. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, it depends entirely on a case-by-case basis, right? Whether it makes sense to outsource appointment booking, or whatever it may be, or whether you do it yourself. It simply depends on how much expertise you need in order to establish a dialogue with the customer. Frode Stenstrøm: This matter of insourcing and outsourcing services is one of those things that goes back and forth over time, but I would like to hear from you first, Thomas, and then you, Erik. What do you think about strategy? Who should you use, when and where? Thomas Tellefsen: At any rate, I would make sure that the services you choose to buy do not lock you into buying services forever. You make yourself dependent on expertise from a third party. Make sure you have the key personnel in- house who can refine and manage the data that is collected, and instead purchase additional services to help out. Eirik Sørmeland: And I would add that you need to own the data yourself. Frode Stenstrøm: Eirik, what is the biggest obstacle in the organization to acquiring new members, when you consider it from an organizational perspective? Eirik Sørmeland: I think people are often hampered by technology, yes. It depends on which systems you have, but what I often see is that people have an awful lot of systems that each do their own thing. So if you want to try something new, some kind of campaign or something along those lines, you have to enter a development process and start tinkering and fiddling around to make it work. Thomas Tellefsen: I completely agree with you, Erik. I also think Norway's organizations are using very old systems. I think there is a lot of digital legacy here that it is time to dust off and do something about. Frode Stenstrøm: That people have bought technology instead of a solution. That they bought a social media solution when that came along, and then they bought an SMS distribution solution when that came along, and so they do not have any integrated platform. Thomas Tellefsen: Yes, completely agree. Historically, there may not have been any membership systems other than off-the-shelf products. Today, the picture is completely different. Frode Stenstrøm: But then you have touched on technology as a limiting factor. Are there other limiting factors that are relevant and that Norway's organizations should think about and address? Eirik Sørmeland: I think people often do the same thing they have always done. That is, they have what worked reasonably well last year sitting in a drawer, and then they are going to repeat an activity. So it is simply reused with minimal changes. Some of this has to do with internal silos. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, so how they are organized accordingly. Eirik Sørmeland: Yes, precisely how the organization is structured. You often have different products; that is, you have membership, perhaps you have some donors, an online store that is operated and sells some things, and then you often have courses and activities and things like that. And if you have... If you have metrics for those responsible for the different things here that are based solely on their sales, you lose some of this internal motivation to actually engage in some cross-selling and upselling and that kind of thing, and then you get more bogged down in internal conflicts that instead wear down the organization. So take a look at which KPIs the organization actually has. Then I think it may perhaps enable you to achieve much more with the data you already have. Frode Stenstrøm: I think we should wrap up now, and I always like to finish with a short question for both of you. To sum up what we have discussed today with your best tips, one or three things, just something short and concise, Thomas, what would it be? Thomas Tellefsen: Very briefly, listen to your members and dare to think differently. Frode Stenstrøm: And Eirik? Eirik Sørmeland: I would say spend more of the budget on the existing members. It is much easier to get them to stay longer than to constantly have to look for new members. Frode Stenstrøm: Thank you both very much for joining us today. This episode is available wherever you usually listen to podcasts, as well as on the website radioprosessplotene.no. This podcast is produced by Prosessplotene. Prosessplotene increases the value of your customers, uses marketing technology and works with business processes, marketing, sales, and more. And service. The person responsible for this episode has been me, Frode Stenstrøm. I am happy to receive questions and feedback on LinkedIn, with the aim of better business processes for everyone working from home.