Real-time marketing and targeted customer dialogue

Frode Stenstrøm: In the last two episodes of ProsessPodden, I have focused on marketing. In the first of these episodes, I spoke with Andreas from Iteo, where we discussed marketing strategy and measurement. In the second episode, I spoke with Trond from Leonberg and Tor Kristoffersen from ProsessPilotene, where we discussed NPS Score as a tool for measuring customer satisfaction and loyalty. In today's episode, I want to focus on what and how modern technology affects the requirements for customer dialogue and the opportunities that technology provides. In a world where customers' expectations of a good customer experience are also increasing, targeted communication is becoming increasingly important as an alternative to bulk mailings. I have therefore invited two subject matter experts from ProsessPilotene to answer my questions about real-time marketing. What is real-time marketing, and why is it important? How can you, as a listener, get started with real-time marketing? What experiences do Geir and Jørgen have from the projects they are working on, and when will Microsoft further develop this technology? My name is Frode Stenstrøm, and this is ProsessPodden. So welcome, Geir and Jørgen. I'm very glad that you took some time to talk with me today. Geir, what are you most passionate about? Geir Andreassen: What I'm most passionate about within marketing is probably efficiency. Creating effective campaigns, and being able to measure them, analyze them, adjust them, and achieve the right, good result. Frode Stenstrøm: But what kind of projects are you working on most these days? Geir Andreassen: Not really marketing, but I'm working with Kristiania and the admissions process, and that is... Yes, it's not directly marketing, but we use Dynamics Marketing in that work. Customer journeys. Frode Stenstrøm: So you use the communication tool to, Geir Andreassen: use the communication tool and send so-called transactional emails as opposed to commercial ones. Frode Stenstrøm: Correct. And Jørgen, what are you passionate about? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: I'm a technologist, so I'm passionate about the technology involved. How can we use technology to create good customer journeys and enable people like Geir to create good communication, and targeted communication, not least. Frode Stenstrøm: So if you do a bad job, Geir's life becomes miserable, really? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, isn't that what technologists are supposed to try to do—make the world easier for people. Frode Stenstrøm: Mm. Thank you both. We're going to start with the first topic today, and that is: what is targeted customer communication, in other words, real-time marketing? Geir Andreassen: I think we can actually replace the term real-time with trigger-based. That perhaps explains a little better what it's about, because there is a trigger, that is, an event, that starts a process where we send out communication. Frode Stenstrøm: For example? Geir Andreassen: Yes, for example, that you have made a purchase in an online store, you have abandoned a shopping cart, you have checked in at an event, that kind of thing. Frode Stenstrøm: Jørgen, I know you've also shown quite a few examples like that on the YouTube channel, with those types of events. Can you just summarize some of the typical examples you've shown there? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, it's what Geir says, the shopping cart example we always use, where you actually abandon something, almost where you don't do anything. An inaction can also be... Be an action in that context, and there's everything around events and everything around—it could be a change, again, from a technologist's perspective, a change to data in the platform, an action or a small change that causes something to happen in the platform that we can communicate about. Frode Stenstrøm: What would you say is the biggest difference between real-time marketing and the traditional sending of a direct mailing, for example? Geir Andreassen: It's that the communication is made more relevant. If you have a list of 10,000 email recipients and you're going to send out a newsletter, not all 10,000 are interested in the same product. They're not in the same age group, they're not the same gender. So there is no differentiated communication. Everything goes to everyone. It's often perceived as noise because inboxes are full of examples like that. Frode Stenstrøm: Isn't that really also the answer to why this is relevant? Geir Andreassen: Yes, I think so. Being relevant is an important phrase here. Frode Stenstrøm: In traditional marketing mailings, there is something called A/B testing. Does A/B testing have a role in real-time marketing? Geir Andreassen: It's important to test the customer journeys, test the communication so that it hits the mark, and we're all different, and respond to slightly different things, so introducing A/B testing in one-to-one communication is also important. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: We now see that A/B testing can go beyond traditional content. You can also test the channel, so we can see which channel you respond best to, or communicate best through. Frode Stenstrøm: You don't just test the message, but also the communication channel? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, it has become just as important. Young people today may not want to use email in the same way we do. Geir Andreassen: No, you don't reach them at home by email. You have to post something on Insta or Snap to reach them at home. Frode Stenstrøm: But could you also test, for example, different content segments, or is it essentially the message that you're testing? Geir Andreassen: I think you test all the elements, really. You test the use of images, you test the subject line, you test the text in the communication, perhaps also the placement of the various text elements in addition to the channel, so yes! Frode Stenstrøm: Are there other reasons why a listener should care about real-time marketing versus the traditional sending of emails, for example? Geir Andreassen: Yes, again, it's about relevance and efficiency, using the money correctly; it's expensive to keep using a scattershot approach, much more effective to do one-to-one. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: And the communication is often two-way, so being able to respond to a reply or the event or what the recipient does in relation to the message you've sent. When you use a scattershot approach, you're done, and you don't really know what the user at the other end has done. But being able to respond to clicks or other actions that recipients take in relation to your communication, and being able to build on that to create a truly good customer journey. Frode Stenstrøm: I think we've all received letters from a company with a no-reply address. It's like, I want to tell you something, but I don't give a damn what you think. And that's perhaps what I think is great about real-time marketing, that you open up precisely for that response and communication. And I also think your example was good, Geir, because real-time marketing isn't necessarily linked to pure marketing, but rather to customer communication, for example in the admissions world, or a sales context, or a webinar, or there can be quite a few use cases. Geir Andreassen: Yes, building customer journeys. You have the option to add a number of other things to these customer journeys, not just communication. You can create a phone call for the customer service center, you can create an appointment. There are actually endless possibilities with the triggers. Frode Stenstrøm: The next topic will be how to get started with real-time marketing. There are several scenarios here. You have those who don't do any marketing at all, or customer communication, or you have those who are used to sending newsletters to quite a lot of people in a segment. What is the way forward for a company to transition to a real-time marketing world? Geir Andreassen: It has to fit the strategy in some way; it has to fit into your marketing mix. But if it does, then it's about making sure you have control of your data, that it's of sufficiently good quality, that you can trust it. If you have poor data quality, the communication won't be relevant, and then you're basically back where you were, or perhaps even worse off than you were. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, I think so too. Yes, the data is even more important in real-time or trigger-based marketing, because you're trying to be relevant, and if you miss the mark, you've really missed the mark. One thing is to fire the cannon. Geir Andreassen: Yes, Frode Stenstrøm: Do you mean, for example, the quality of customer information or contact information? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Basically everything you have about the customers, Geir Andreassen: Basically everything you have about the customers, right, the various purchases, clicks, opens, in other words, other customer events, in addition to, yes, all the standard first name, last name, email address, right, and the address and, yes. Frode Stenstrøm: Does it require a lot of planning, do you think, or have the tools become so easy now that you can really start experimenting a little with smaller customer journeys and learn as you go? Geir Andreassen: I would recommend always starting small, testing things out, seeing whether it works or not, making adjustments until it works, and building from there. When it comes to building customer journeys, my experience is really to create small journeys. That is, small, simple customer journeys instead of large, complicated ones, because all the time you have to make adjustments. And the thing is that once someone has entered a journey, they continue in that journey, in a way, until it ends. And the changes you make may not necessarily affect the new ones then. Frode Stenstrøm: But is it possible to change a customer journey once it has been launched? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, technically you can change it, but as Geir says, you will then follow a given path. The person who is already in that customer journey will follow the path that has been set. Then new people may enter. New paths, but creating several small ones, that is, many small streams, and building a complete customer journey consisting of small customer journeys, is smart, because then you have much greater flexibility and the ability to make changes along the way. Geir Andreassen: Yes, I have a recent example of this involving events, that is, a customer journey, for example. If you want to send out a confirmation, you need to send out a reminder two days before, and you may also need to send out a reminder one hour before, in addition to an evaluation to those who checked in after the event is over. If you put all of that into one customer journey, and you want to make some changes, then it becomes difficult. So the key is to split it up. You receive a confirmation when you have registered. Then there is a new one for reminders, and then another new one after check-in, that is, the evaluation. Then you have much more control over it. Frode Stenstrøm: So you create many smaller journeys instead of one big, long one? Geir Andreassen: And it is much easier to maintain control, evaluate, and make changes. Frode Stenstrøm: That was a good tip. Are there other tips like that that are important to keep in mind when you are building these journeys? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: I am rather fond of having a plan, at least when you create all the small ones. It can be useful to create a somewhat overarching plan to maintain some control over what you have set up. That is always good. So it is very good to try and test, but I would make a small plan first. You talked about strategy, Geir. You have strategy as the foundation, and then you should make a plan for what you are going to do. Frode Stenstrøm: How would you organize those who will work on this? One thing is customer communication purely for marketing purposes, webinars for example, but you may also have communication in sales, you had communication in admissions. How does a company organize itself to, in a way, realize the benefits of this type of investment? Geir Andreassen: I think that you need someone with overall responsibility, who has control and the authority to make changes, and then, not least, you need to have users who understand the product. And who understand how things are set up. Frode Stenstrøm: Is cross-disciplinary expertise required, or have we reached the point where you can actually get a lot done without being IT-savvy, so to speak, or a data nerd? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, you can get a long way without being a data nerd, absolutely. I do like knowing a little about data when you are going to work with it; that is always an advantage, but you do not need to be a data nerd for that. It is really about knowing your customer, which is important regardless. When you are going to communicate with them, you do not need to know the data model inside out; you do not have to these days. But having some familiarity with data is always useful. Frode Stenstrøm: So you need to understand a little about what an order is, and where you retrieve the different data sources from? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, it is about what the customer does. What lies behind the data you are working with? What kinds of interactions or events lie behind them? Frode Stenstrøm: I have often seen in the projects I have worked on myself that knowing how to write good copy is a field in itself. Knowing how to build a good customer journey is perhaps another field, and being able to understand the data, as you mentioned, Jørgen, is perhaps a third. What I am a little curious about is how companies with few resources can actually build themselves up to realize the benefits of this type of tool, or whether it becomes too much and they simply fail because they do not have the right expertise? Geir Andreassen: No, I do not think so. I think the tool is scalable, just as organizations are scalable. Small organizations need less. There are not that many users, for example. There are not 50 people in a customer service center who have to deal with this. So it is simply scalable. Frode Stenstrøm: Which tools do you find most relevant for customers who will be working with real-time marketing? Geir Andreassen: Relevant tools, I would say Dynamics, marketing. You may need some tools for analysis. Power BI, for example, and then you can never get away from Excel. Frode Stenstrøm: Excel, of course! Geir Andreassen: Always Excel. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, that is wonderful. The world's most widely used CRM system is probably Excel, isn't it? Excel, sticky notes, and email! Geir Andreassen: Very simple, Jørgen Amrud Hagen: I think you can do everything in Excel, really. Geir Andreassen: Export some lists, create some pivot tables, and see what differences lie behind the figures. Frode Stenstrøm: But all joking aside, it is about measuring follow-up and results so that we can learn, and that may be the most important thing, so we do not just send out the same message and keep missing the mark. Would you say that the cost of getting started is high? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: No, the marketing platform is already there. If you already have Dynamics, it is very straightforward; then you get a small additional module you can use. If you have nothing already, it is still relatively affordable. It is based on—you pay for the recipients, so if it is a small organization with not that many recipients, then it is not such a large cost. Then it is not such a large cost. Frode Stenstrøm: It essentially scales with the respondents you communicate with? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, that's right. Frode Stenstrøm: Is it a lot of work to set up? Do you find that it is almost a finished product, or is there a lot required to get started? Geir Andreassen: I find it to be a fairly finished product, yes. It takes a couple of days to set everything up correctly, but I do not think that is long or expensive in this context. Frode Stenstrøm: What is the biggest task involved in getting started? Geir Andreassen: It may be things like segmentation and getting to know the data, getting to know the customers and understanding how to implement the strategy, in terms of turning the strategy into customer journeys. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, it is the planning and the data. Geir Andreassen: Planning and data. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Important, because regardless of the timing, that is the most important thing: that you Geir Andreassen: get it right. Frode Stenstrøm: The next topic is the experiences you have had so far from the projects you have worked on, and specifically what effects have you seen for those who have, in a way, made the transition from traditional marketing and dialogue to real-time marketing? I thought I could start by taking a brief look at ourselves here at ProsessPilotene. We have had this marketing tool in operation for quite a few years. And sent out a few newsletters very occasionally. But now that we have started doing webinars, seminars, and marketing, we use these customer journeys to a much greater extent, precisely to follow up on the registration forms there. And what is fun about it is that I can see that it works very, very well. We produce much more content than we ever did before. And we have also connected our websites to real-time marketing, so those who contact us there go straight into the marketing tool. Even though it is a different CMS, it goes straight in, and then we can create a customer journey for it. So it has really been an absolutely fantastic experience. And one of the cases you are working on now, Geir, you mentioned Kristiania's admissions system. Geir Andreassen: Yes, there, when you apply for a program, the application will go through various stages. Or statuses, and we can imagine that with every single change, you need to send communication to the student, and then the change in status is what initiates it, or the trigger. Then you send out a message, possibly followed up with a phone call; that is, within the same customer journey, you create a phone call. Frode Stenstrøm: If you were to solve the challenges you just described, Geir, for that customer without real-time marketing: Is there any real alternative, or is that the best way to solve it? Geir Andreassen: It's a very cumbersome way to do it. If, for example, you're going to create segments, it's kind of the opposite. So you create a segment for everyone who has applied. Then you have to do that. Then you can send out the message. But you have to do the same thing the next day. Because there are always new ones. And you have to do the same thing the next day. Then you're going to send out an offer. And then you have to do it. If you have eight different statuses for this application, then you're sitting there doing eight repetitive tasks every single day. And then you can hire a couple of people. Frode Stenstrøm: Right! Geir Andreassen: And you avoid that now with trigger- or event- based, that is, real-time marketing. Then there's a trigger listening for it, and once that application changes status, a new message goes out. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, you were talking about our own tool, or our own use of the tool, and we also see how we're finally managing to communicate well with our own customers. We've been a little passive, and we can now also start using the tool, because that's what it's worth using it for. So I respond to events, when people have attended events, we connect it, as you say, to the websites, and that's what's so great, that it isn't just real time, as we call it, it's this event. When people have been on, watched our YouTube videos, watched another webinar or visited the websites, we can talk to them, and with relevant information. Because we know which pages they've been on and we know what they've seen, so we can talk to people with relevant information. Frode Stenstrøm: To be honest about the fact that the transition we're now discussing is quite new in the Microsoft world, and that products have evolved tremendously in just the last few years. Customers who are getting started today can actually start using it, and customers who have been thinking in the old way must, or can, now start planning that transition. But then they suddenly get a completely different form of communication, so next year we'll probably have even more real cases to talk about. We know that we have cases under way now that we can't talk about, but where value is being created. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Yes, you enter a completely different day-to-day reality if you start using it today compared with last year. That's something I've also talked about in the other webinars, that it has become mature, from our perspective at least. Frode Stenstrøm: I'd like to move on to the final topic, which is where the road ahead leads for Dynamics Customer Insights, which is the product's correct name. I think marketing will remain as a term with us for a long time. But can you say a little about what you know Microsoft has planned for the product? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: It's what we've talked about a little, and it's about both anonymous profiles and being able to collect data from websites. And following the customer journey before you actually know the customer. The customer does a lot both on websites and other channels before you get to know the customer. Then you can collect that data and create a good customer profile from the unknown data once you identify the customer. So you have a history you can start with, giving you good data. Frode Stenstrøm: And we're planning to demonstrate that in a webinar after the summer holidays, I think. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: That's the plan. At some point, I haven't set a date yet, Frode Stenstrøm: We also need to get access to the products ourselves, at least to that functionality. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: And then there's probably the matter of connecting more closely to other data platforms. Being able to bring in good data is extremely important. We have Customer Insights Data, which is a part of the tool, but you also have Microsoft's Fabric solution there, which is becoming more closely integrated into the entire solution. Frode Stenstrøm: I know that some companies talk about CDMs, Customer Data Management Platforms, and that's really where I see this increasingly heading, that you collect data from online stores and point-of-sale systems and drop-in systems and goodness knows what. Social media too, yes. And you said that earlier too, Geir, about communicating through channels other than email. I mean, I'm thinking WhatsApp or SMS or push notifications to mobile devices; that will be very, very important. If you want to communicate through a channel that Dynamics Marketing doesn't support, you can create your own channels there, right? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: You can create channels for almost anything. You now have quite a few channels that are built in, and then you can create your own channels and communicate through them as long as they have an interface you can communicate with, then you can communicate with anything, and they can be used in the customer journeys in the same way as email and SMS. Frode Stenstrøm: And we haven't talked that much about Copilot in this episode, which is actually a little refreshing. We have lots of demonstrations of it on our YouTube channel, so people can watch them there. But there's no doubt that artificial intelligence will affect both content creation and searching for segments and people. Jørgen Amrud Hagen: So I think it will also help a little with planning, as I mentioned, actually designing your customer journey, so that you get a little help from Copilot to set up the simple things, and it's a bit like, I don't know what to call it, but an assistant's job, really. That's essentially what it is. Frode Stenstrøm: I also see that the connection to the other Microsoft products has become stronger. We use Loop for planning ourselves, to keep track of all the marketing activities, which is actually a fairly new product, launched this year and constantly evolving, and that means that every single mailing becomes a small mini-project with the parties involved, and then each person responsible gets their own little to-do list, so I see that there's now a lot of good technology for producing content, at least. I thought we'd wrap up now by asking you a question, and that is, if you were to give a little advice to customers who are wondering whether they should start using these tools, what would it be? Jørgen Amrud Hagen: Well, just throw yourself into it, you have to test it, we've now made something, going back to the videos we've made, because you get a good overview of what's available, at least, and that's a good start, just watch them to see whether this is for you, and there are trial versions available that are quite easy to get hold of; you can either get help from us or do it directly yourself, so you can test it out. You can click around. There may not be much data there, but you can click around and look at the tool and see whether it's for you. So that's a good start, just to see whether the tool and the platform are right for you. Frode Stenstrøm: Take the plunge, basically. Geir Andreassen: Yes, I fully support taking the plunge, starting small, evaluating, adjusting, moving forward. Frode Stenstrøm: Go for it! Dare to talk to the customer, quite simply! Geir Andreassen: Yes, get to know your customers. And understand them! Frode Stenstrøm: And with those words, I thank Geir and Jørgen, both subject-matter experts from ProsessPilotene, for their contributions to today's episode. This episode can be found everywhere you listen to podcasts and on our YouTube channel, where you'll also find demonstrations of the products we've discussed today, as well as the website radio.Prosesspilotene.no. This podcast is produced by Prosesspilotene, which increases the value of your customers through the use of Microsoft technology and works with the business processes of marketing, sales, service and project management. Our analytics team can help you with artificial intelligence, insights and analytics, and the collaboration team can create websites, customer portals and customer clubs. The person responsible for this episode is me, Frode Stenstrøm. The project manager is Odd-Bjørg Berge. We welcome your questions and feedback on LinkedIn and our YouTube channel. Wishing everyone better business processes, until next time.