Moelven's experience with leadership and communication

Frode Stenstrøm: One of the greatest challenges to value creation is implementing changes. It could be a change in the use of technology, adaptation to new markets, changes in products, as well as changes in how one runs sales or delivery processes. An important success criterion in all such changes is active leadership. Very few companies I have spoken to have as deliberate an approach to this as Moelven Industrier. I have therefore invited them into the studio to have a chat about active leadership and internal communication. I ask Terje Melheim and Ida Langdalen Kristiansen why leadership development and internal communication are so important, what kinds of effects we think we can achieve, what kinds of experiences Moelven Industrier has had, and what they would advise others to do. How do they approach the work, and what is their plan for the future, in the hope that this conversation can inspire you to create even greater value and better work processes, and perhaps even greater success with the technology projects you invest in. My name is Frode Stenstrøm and this is ProsessPodden. Welcome, Terje and Ida. I am very pleased that you are willing to share your experiences with us. I thought I could start with you, Terje, and simply say welcome, and ask you to introduce yourself. Terje Melheim: Yes, thank you very much. Terje Melheim, I have worked at Moelven for a little over four years now. I am an educator by training, and I have always had a great fascination with leadership, and have pursued further education in leadership, both educational leadership and strategic management economics, and have worked in both the public and private sectors at different stages of my career up to now. Frode Stenstrøm: Exciting. And you work with Ida? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: That's right. I have been at Moelven a little longer. I have been there for seven years, and for the last four I have been responsible for internal communication in the group. Frode Stenstrøm: I mentioned at the outset that we will be talking about several things today, and I will start with what Moelven Industrier means by the concepts of active leadership and internal communication. Terje Melheim: Well, active leadership—you can hear from the term that it activates. It is about how people must actively do something themselves to help create the conditions for people to succeed in becoming what we might call, you know, realizing their potential, becoming the best version of themselves. Before we start talking about leadership, we at Moelven like to talk about active followership. Because everyone at Moelven is an employee. And then some have an additional role as leaders. And they have a very important additional role. And what we know about leadership is that the very worst thing you can do is to be passive. It is not doing anything; it is not intervening. So when we talk about active leadership, it means taking an active role in helping to develop both yourself, your own leadership, but also developing the team, the people around you, the organization, and your business further. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And when we talk about internal communication, we have also defined the leader as the most important communication channel, if we can call it that. Everything else is, in a way, a support tool. We have lots of technology that we can use to help us, but it is the leader, the immediate manager, who is to be the main carrier of the messages we have internally. So I think it is really cool to have a job where I can facilitate people communicating really well, both through training in leadership communication, working with positive feedback, and teaching them to use technology so that they can get some support in their day-to-day communication. Frode Stenstrøm: Could you give some other examples of both active leadership and internal communication? Terje Melheim: We can start with where this began, where some... were defined Some clear goals for developing a culture, developing Moelven, and then it is about looking at who we really are. Who are the people at Moelven who, since 1899, have created value through a forest-based industry and products that come from the forest and make their way into people's living rooms? Who are the people who have created these products and who possess that expertise? What do we have in common? Moelven has come into being through many companies having been there for a long time, but also through acquisitions and people joining this large group in different contexts and at different times. Then it is also about looking at what we have in common. What do we want to have in common? What ambition do we have? Because what we had to acknowledge fairly quickly is that the people are the most important resource at Moelven. The expertise that people at Moelven have is absolutely essential for us to succeed. And if the people at Moelven are to be able to continue developing, ensuring that we realize our potential, then we need to have a clear perspective on how we will succeed in doing that together through what we call active followership and active leadership. And in that work, it is about defining clearly and explicitly what our ambition is, where we are today, and how we will reach the ambition we have set for ourselves. So that is some of the work we have been doing over the past four years, building it step by step. Because this is long-term work. It takes time to develop a culture. Frode Stenstrøm: In what you are saying now, I hear a very strong parallel to what I call identity, marketing, and customer communication work, because when you have created an identity, or want to present yourself in a certain way in the market, the biggest job is bringing that identity to the employees. And you actually do that through active leadership. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: In very concrete terms, based on the work where we defined what it should be, we created a dialogue canvas that we used in the first rollout. We have created dialogue cards to practice communicating well within our values, which are also based on active followership. We have leadership modules where people practice the areas we believe are important in order to live out active leadership and be good support for active employees. Through your leadership, you must establish a framework that enables us to have active employees. They must get the information they need, they must understand what the goals are, they must understand what results they create, and then the leaders must be trained in that, and we must facilitate that. Frode Stenstrøm: That entails a rather different requirement for expertise than many leaders may traditionally be used to. Terje Melheim: We have focused a little on the concept of competence internally, because I find it interesting, as an educator, of course, also because competence is about good perspectives framed by something else. The two perspectives that make up competence are knowledge— knowledge of what works, what research and experience indicate is the right thing to do. But then there are the skills to carry it out, and the skills to carry it out must also be practiced. It is about how you communicate, it is about how you collaborate, it is about the engagement and motivation you are able to bring to it, it is about how you manage yourself, it is about how you manage to get others engaged. And then, in a way, this knowledge and these skills are framed by the values and attitudes that, so to speak, rest on community. And it is rather interesting to see how important values and attitudes are for developing competence. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And how curious our leaders have become after we have worked on raising awareness and created a basic understanding for leaders—how much they have realized they do not know, and how curious they have become about their own role, and how they can exercise leadership better. I think it would be great fun to practice using Workplace, for example, which is one of the technologies we use, where people have seen that this can really help me, especially if, say, you are responsible for two different sawmills and are therefore in two different places. Becoming curious about how I can use this technology to develop my leadership and be an even better leader who is perceived as being present, though perhaps not physically. Frode Stenstrøm: When I talk to almost anyone who has a career, you generally start with a profession. You work in a profession, whether you're an engineer, or whether you're an electrician or a nurse, you work in a profession, and then you get a middle management position, because you may have been good at that profession, and then you get a senior management position. But on that journey, everyone has to change their attitude from being the best themselves to working through others. And that involves a journey where you let go of prestige and things like that, right Terje Melheim: Hmm. Frode Stenstrøm: And we did talk a little before this about possibly leading yourself, right? Being able to facilitate that. And I think perhaps you have seen a bit of an example of that through the work you have done. Terje Melheim: Yes, an important part of what we focus on when we develop leaders, for example through the basic module in active leadership that we have, is that we start by looking inward at ourselves. Creating self-awareness and what it takes to lead yourself in a good way. Because as a leader, you must always start with yourself. It's a bit like being on a plane, you have to put the mask on yourself before you can help anyone else. And then you need insight into your own leadership and how you influence others, so that you can also have some perspective on how you can help others perform well. Frode Stenstrøm: So do you also work on understanding your own values, because the choices you make are often based on your own values too, and they aren't the same when you have as many leaders as you do? Terje Melheim: No, we do have some values, and we have a mindset in our active leadership that we lay out very clearly and explicitly, where we say, among other things, that we must communicate and act credibly, you must focus on results through involvement, and you must stimulate development and innovation, but each and every person brings their own values into their leadership, and here you have to become confident about the personal values you stand on. And one of the exercises we use in our leadership training is the example of Geir Lippestad, when he goes in to serve as defense counsel in the trial, the 22 July trial, bringing with him a small yellow note that says calm, dignified and democracy. Those three words are written on his yellow note, and they are the values he brings with him. And what we ask our leaders is, what is written on your yellow note? What do you bring with you into the moment of truth? When you're standing there in some difficult situation with your employees, what will you stand on? And that reflection, together with our active leadership, can add up to something good. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And I train leaders in communication, and some of them have completed the basic module first. And what's a little exciting there is that they are much more aware of the influence the person I am has on my communication. We do quite a bit of training on head, heart and hands, where you include facts, feelings and action. And based on your personality, you tend to prefer one of the three. Frode Stenstrøm: Yes. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Some are very fact-oriented, some go straight to action while others have lots of feelings and forget the other two, and those who have become more aware of themselves beforehand, they are much more—they have a much greater understanding that, oh yes, I actually have to adapt my message to include all three, because the likelihood that I'm talking to someone who is exactly like me is very small Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, it's marginal when you look at all the personality types we have in the population. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And then seeing the learning they've already had, they can get some communication tips on how to adapt their messages to reach as many people as possible. It's exciting when the light bulb goes on: oh, that's why I'm not getting through, or that's why they don't understand me. Terje Melheim: And in my profile, I'm somewhat obsessively concerned with the big picture, and that's something I've tried to bring in as well when we have worked on developing this, so that things fit together. It has to be the case that if we're going to succeed— and I strongly believe this myself—that if we're going to succeed tomorrow, it must feel as though whether you meet Ida, or whether you meet me, things must pull in the same direction, and it must be very clear and explicit that what we stand on, what we believe in, what Moelven brings to the table, so to speak, is perceived as the same, whether it comes from Ida, who works primarily with internal communication, or me, who primarily works with perhaps leadership development. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And that is somewhat where we see the way forward for active leadership, that we build on it with more modules. Among other things, we have now completed a major emergency preparedness project, where we look at whether we can do something for the leadership role when it comes to emergency preparedness? So that it also fits together with us having the same type of training, but it is aimed specifically at that role. When we run media training for our leaders, it is based on scenarios that we have from emergency preparedness where we know we have high risk, so we have selected them deliberately. And then they fit together; there is a common thread in everything we do. We use the same communication models as we do in the basic module. Frode Stenstrøm: I'm having some reflections on what you're saying, because if you read the theory behind change management, it addresses exactly what you're saying about the head and the heart and And that is that the way you communicate with people who are going through a change is very different depending on whether they are right at the beginning, when it is new to them, or at the end, when they have adopted it and seen that this was a great thing, and then you have the midpoint where people start to come around, right? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: We do quite a bit of work on understanding how you can facilitate communication in change processes or projects. That is one of the things we emphasize quite strongly in the communication module, including the importance of having a good structure. We are very inspired by the researcher Simon Ervenes, who works with effective leadership, and says that you must have that as a prerequisite. So understanding that a communication plan, for example, does not need to be difficult to set up. It should really be as simple as possible, and closely linked to the project plan, and that you then actually start with the rationale for why we are doing this, and that everyone is allowed to define their own rationale, based on the framework, of course. But often leaders have already decided this, they have been through long processes before something is to be done, and then the project participants, those who have to do something differently, have not necessarily been part of that process. So starting earlier than you normally would is something we emphasize quite a lot, both in training and when we are brought in as advisers in internal change processes. Terje Melheim: I think Ida is getting at something absolutely central here, because what I also hear her talking about is leaders as translators, interpreters, and with our role at group level, it is about translating and creating simplified models of what we are going to do, so that everyone can understand them. That is actually one of the most difficult things, managing to turn somewhat complex and complicated things into something simple, but which pulls in the same direction, and not least where you can also manage to view several disciplines through the same lens. Frode Stenstrøm: Then I think you have started on the next topic that I was going to ask you about, which is sort of how, and I'd like you to tell us a little more about the program you have developed, ownership structure, and things like that, so that those listening can perhaps create a similar program in their own organization. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Yes, we saw a very great need to run leadership communication training, because we received many questions about the technology, about both Workplace and Teams, but fundamentally it was about understanding why I should communicate, what the difference is between information and communication, for example. So what our department was allowed to do was gather together all the research we enjoy geeking out over, and define some areas that we know are important, where we can provide some very simple tips, small incremental improvements rather than the big things. We also run a fully digital version, because we are spread across Norway and Sweden, over 34 different companies, where we recorded podcast episodes with the theory, and then you have a workbook with exercises and Teams meetings to talk together about those topics. So selecting which topics are important for your people to learn, and do we anyone internally who can teach it? There is a great deal of learning in teaching others. Terje Melheim: And this leadership communication module is part of what we have called a leadership pipeline mindset, where we envision having different leadership levels with somewhat different needs. Some needs apply to everyone who has a leadership role, while other needs are more specific if, for example, you are the general manager of a company. We have developed leadership modules with specific target groups, and one of the modules we have in addition to leadership communication is a basic leadership module. It is also open to everyone, but linked to that module there is a separate module for the leader's leader. So that means we create a connection between a basic module in leadership and training the leaders in how to follow up their people who are participating in a development initiative. Because one of the things that is actually a little murky when you work with leadership development, for example, is how to ensure that your initiatives have an impact. It is a little difficult to measure in concrete terms, but how can you facilitate the greatest possible likelihood of success? Yes, we know from our employee survey that the people who are most important to our leaders' engagement are their leaders. In other words, the leader's leader is the most important for our leaders' engagement. So for them to be engaged, they need to have a close connection with their leaders. And that is why we have created that connection in our basic module, so that the leader's leader is involved, knows what is happening, and is constantly in close dialogue with those participating in a development initiative. And I think that may be one of the factors behind why we seem to be succeeding well so far. Frode Stenstrøm: How have you managed to organize it in such a large company, and not least a geographically dispersed company? Terje Melheim: There have been some principles that have been important to us. First, we have stated very clearly that we will own all the content ourselves. When we meet, it is to practice. Because every time we take someone out of production to spend time with Ida or me in another room, so to speak, it is... It is challenging in industry to take someone out, but we are completely dependent on doing so in order to develop. Then it is about making sure that we get the greatest possible benefit from the time we have together. When we are together, it is to practice, and practice may involve reflection, but it may also involve testing and trying things in a safe setting that you will do when you return. I like to think of the sessions we have as an in-between space. It is really the in-between space in everyday life where you can step away, become inspired, and gain some new perspectives that you take back and practice. We can call it practice, but we are actually almost in a competitive situation. Every single day, we are measured very heavily on results all the time. And that means we have to create those in-between spaces where you can practice before returning to the competitive situation, and can continue practicing, or make practice feel safe as part of the competitive situation. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And then I think one of the success criteria is that we use somewhat different formats. Because in the basic module, people meet physically for two days on three occasions, while in the communication module it is fully digital, and we meet on Teams to practice. That also gives you practice in using Teams in a slightly different way. And then we have some shorter versions, including within HSE and media training, which are only one day or half a day digitally. Frode Stenstrøm: Practicing is of course very good, but how do they manage to maintain that practice afterward, once they have gone home and practiced? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: It has something to do with the follow-up from their immediate leader. Among other things, in the communication module, the final task is to set three goals going forward. You must do that together with your immediate leader before you receive a diploma confirming that you have completed it. We then recommend setting up separate calendar entries for yourself for the goals you have set, to make sure that you continue working on them. It is fascinating, because I can also see from the podcast statistics that people often go back a few months later and listen more to the topics where they felt they needed a little extra practice. Frode Stenstrøm: But then you are actually coming back a little to what you said at the outset, that it is my immediate leader who continues to follow up on my leadership, creating a kind of pyramid effect that pushes it downward? Terje Melheim: I have come here now straight from a webinar with leaders' leaders on coaching leadership. That is the second touchpoint I have with them. Last week, I had their leaders, or their employees, at a two-day in-person session. Today I met the leaders, and the perspective was to go through some of what we worked on last week, so they are prepared for it, and not least to train them now in the webinar we had today, training them in how they can have a coaching dialogue with their leaders about their development. We can help set up a structure that enables us to involve the leader's leader more closely, and ensure that we get the best possible impact from the initiatives we undertake. Frode Stenstrøm: From what I have been involved in, I have seen that if we are, for example, going to introduce a new sales process in a sales department, or a company for that matter, the success criterion is whether it is the leader who conducts training for their immediate team, including the tools that are used, rather than bringing in a consultant who will only provide training on the tools. The results from the two approaches are diametrically different, and that is what I hear you have actually done, that you also start coaching level 1, then coach level 2 further in, and then work your way systematically downward. That leads to a follow-up question that I have been asked many times: how do you manage to motivate the first one? Terje Melheim: I think it has been absolutely fantastic to join Moelven and a company where there are so many people who are interested in developing, and where so many want to be part of the journey we are on. We are packed with people who have a strong interest both in developing themselves and in developing the people around them. So there is no shortage of people who are motivated to help us develop both Moelven as a company and each individual and team in that context. And then for those who find this difficult, because this is also about changes, as you said at the outset, having to change and take part in things that you may feel a little uncertain about—there are very many at Moelven who are highly skilled professionals, but who have not had much experience with or awareness of their own leadership. That will come, it can be developed, and those perspectives can emerge, and then we take it step by step. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And we are still somewhat at the starting point when it comes to creating awareness around leadership as well. I am really looking forward to further development. One of the things we did to make sure that we delivered what we wanted was to bring in a... We ran a pilot first and tested it with people we know give completely honest feedback. And that was very useful for developing it further. Among other things, we created a workbook after the pilot, because we saw that we needed to compile the theories visually and the exercises physically. And we were completely blown away when the first registration round opened and 180 leaders and subject-matter managers signed up. So it became a logistical challenge, but I thought we would solve it. Frode Stenstrøm: But then they must have managed to create a desire to embrace the change instead of having it imposed on them. Because that is what I think is dangerous about things like this: it comes from a CEO who says that you should never do anything available in a development program. There is no explanation of why or how it creates value, and then some things are created, and we have actually created more noise than value. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: We started with active employee engagement, and I think it was the curiosity that was created when people sat down with their group and got to talk through what is important to us at work, how we take responsibility, how we create engagement, how we develop ourselves, and where we want to develop. And that curiosity, where the leader also heard how many good discussions that came out of that dialogue canvas session, there was this pull afterward: what happens now, what do we do now, how can we develop further, how can we work even more closely with the employees. So it was a very good first step toward really creating the foundation for that curiosity. Terje Melheim: Yes, I also think it is absolutely essential that we started by mobilizing the entire organization. Because if we had only focused on the management level, we would have missed something absolutely essential. And I think that step two here has been that we need to mobilize leadership, in order to activate employee engagement. Clearly, in the leadership role, you have an incredibly important role, you hold some of the keys, and ensure that your people have the opportunity to participate and contribute actively, to get involved and develop, to take ownership of what is going to happen across the organization. So leadership becomes incredibly important for mobilizing employee engagement, and what we mean by employee engagement is that we want everyone at Moelven to take active personal responsibility in their daily work, contribute with commitment, and be able to develop themselves, their team, and the business. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: What we are really working on is getting the employees to move away from, at least in manufacturing companies, where there can be a tendency to be a cog in the machine. I come to work, I do my job, then I go home, to being active agents in their own roles. How can I develop it further and think, okay, I come to work, but how can I do it even better tomorrow? Frode Stenstrøm: But in what you are talking about now, I hear a great deal about culture work. In many companies, there is a decision-making pyramid, where the CEO decides everything, and no authority or power is delegated. But I get the sense that you are saying that you have delegated quite a lot of decision-making and authority down through the system, so that you say, okay, we are heading in that direction, but there is an opportunity to influence things locally. Terje Melheim: Yes, words and concepts do shape reality. When we talk about active employee engagement, it is about having to activate something in each and every person, making it possible for each and every person to participate and contribute. And that also places a major obligation on leadership in relation to that. Yes, but when we say that, what does that mean for active leadership? Yes, it means that we must also accept the consequences of people being engaged and involved and wanting to take part in our development, then they must be allowed to do so. Because if people do not feel that they can live out that active employee engagement in line with the expectations that we establish, then that will reduce their engagement and their desire to participate and contribute. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And historically, we have had a fairly decentralized culture. But I feel that this, in addition to several other steps I have taken, but I feel that this active employee engagement and leadership have been very unifying for Moelven and have defined what we are good at and can continue to build on. Which, at least from what I hear when I am out there, a great many people appreciate. Frode Stenstrøm: What you are really doing is developing people's skills, and you have mentioned communication skills and leadership, but what other types of skills are you trying to convey to the organization? Terje Melheim: To a large extent, they will be the skills needed to interact and collaborate, and if you are going to collaborate and interact with your people as a leader, you need to know yourself, you need to know how you affect others, and you need to know your people through how they affect one another across teams, and how you can get the best out of them. It will be about how you manage to motivate yourself and find a good balance in your own leadership, because we have many leaders who are consumed by everything that is happening all the time, and all the demands they feel are placed on them. How do you manage to make your own leadership sustainable, so that you can keep it up over time? How do you manage to motivate yourself and your people even when challenging things happen? And it is also about having the skills to handle challenging situations. We do have to set expectations for one another. And one of the quotes we use in our leadership development, the basic leadership module, is that culture is not defined by how things are around here or what is embedded in the walls, but culture is defined by the worst behavior we are willing to accept. Frode Stenstrøm: Interesting. Terje Melheim: And if we use that as our starting point, it is also about active leadership. It must also respond when someone crosses the line. And how do you do that? How do you handle it? How do you have the skill and courage to step in and actually put your foot down when necessary. And say that we do not accept this, this is not okay. This goes against both Moelven's values and my values, my yellow note. I am responding now, I have to respond. And here we need to work out the way forward together, because this is crazy. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And then I think, in relation to what I work on, we have tried to be as specific as possible so that you get very practical tips on how you can use this in your everyday work. When we conduct evaluations on communication, one of the things I get the most feedback on is: I think it has been absolutely fantastic to learn how to put together a proper meeting agenda, how do I write good minutes? How do I ensure that everyone understands what they are supposed to do? Frode Stenstrøm: Because people do not do that, how many meetings have you attended without an invitation that includes an agenda and minutes? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: That is absolutely right, and it is one of the small improvements that many participants say, “Wow, I have become much more aware of this.” And also when you are going into somewhat spontaneous conversations where you know it is wise to prepare a little, just sit down for a minute beforehand. What do I want to get out of this conversation? How is it important that we allocate the tasks we agree on afterward? These are small steps that make us even better, and that is very Terje Melheim: Yes, also a small example from the basic leadership module, where we are somewhat obsessively focused on always starting by reflecting on our own, then reflecting together with a few people, and then reflecting as a group. And these perspectives are also something we want the leaders to take with them, because they will be dealing with different personality types. And when we get to know ourselves a little better through that basic leadership module and self-awareness, it is also about knowing a little about who talks their way to clear thoughts, and who needs to think through their thoughts clearly before they start speaking. And it is about being able to handle both and ensure that we are Moelven. We do not just let the same people speak every time, but we bring out all the voices that make the overall result as good as possible. That is also important, so there are also steps like these that you can learn from. Frode Stenstrøm: And this is very difficult to achieve in practice, because some people take up a lot of space and have little to contribute. And then you have some who are very observant, but they are the ones who reflect a lot and have a lot to contribute. Bringing them forward is a very important skill in what you are discussing. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: But one simple tip there that we also work on a little is that you, as the meeting facilitator, actually set the expectations for the meeting when you go into it. You can have some ground rules for how we want things to be here. I want everyone to talk together, using approaches where everyone gets to think first. I am one of those who tends to jump in very quickly, and being aware that those of us who are like that can hold back a little, and then we can let those who need a little more time talk their way to what they need. And that we agree when we allocate tasks at the end, or that when we summarize at the end, we actually agree on the content. Frode Stenstrøm: With this program that you have now developed with those modules and so on, do you use it when recruiting new employees? Terje Melheim: What we are starting to hear from the businesses out there is that we are beginning to get applicants for leadership positions at Moelven who say, when they come in for an interview, that one of the reasons they chose to apply is that they have heard that Moelven is good at developing leaders internally. And I feel that this is the kind of feedback that really engages and motivates me, and I know it's the same with Ida, because then we know that some of what we have worked hard to achieve actually starts to produce concrete results. I like to think of it a bit as us becoming a small talent factory for developing leaders. If we can make sure to make leaders better through internal initiatives at Moelven and in the arenas where they can train and develop, well, then it may be the case that every now and then they may receive offers because they simply become attractive to others. But then our goal must be to be so good that they want to stay with us and continue developing here instead. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: I also think it's pretty cool to see, I try to share some of what we're working on on LinkedIn, to show a slightly different side of Moelven than what at least many people in the area think of as very heavy industry out there. To get feedback from several of the trainees who said that they applied to Moelven because they saw the way we work. Frode Stenstrøm: What's great about that is seeing leadership development, skills development together with customer communication and marketing in general, because with those two things, one, done right, invests in people, and then you get the people. The other may potentially just get the people, but not necessarily the effect of what you're talking about now. Then the money would rather go toward leadership development and employee development, if I were the one who could decide, that is. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: We always say that our reputation starts internally, we should never put anything out externally, any external communication, unless we have properly anchored it and people know that we're doing it, and that is an important principle in all our processes, both the positive and the somewhat more negative ones. Frode Stenstrøm: Exactly! How do you manage to stay relevant and up to date? Terje Melheim: When it comes to leadership and the field of leadership, there are of course new developments there, and we are dependent on being present in the arenas where we can learn about new experiences, new research, and stay up to date, and I think that will be some of the most important tasks that both Ida and I have in our roles, that we also have to monitor what's happening out there. And then we have to manage, to a reasonable degree, to see how we can hold on to and maintain what is good, and how we can ensure continuous improvement. We talk a lot about continuous improvement in the industry, and we need to bring that with us as well. That requirement placed on all employees out at Moelven, at their station as an operator, that you should constantly be looking for these small improvements. We need to bring the same principle with us when we develop the leadership modules. The principles and the broad outlines will probably remain in place. But the small adjustments for how we will continuously improve and develop ourselves, we need to bring those with us all the way. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: is perhaps the biggest challenge for the two of us who work quite closely We would like to do new things. think it's incredibly fun to do new things. We would like to develop professionally. So sticking with it and persevering, and enduring the fact that this is now the sixth round of the same meeting, the same training, That is just as big a challenge as finding lots of new topics that we're curious about. I think holding back a little, and actually taking all the leaders we need through what we have, is important. Terje Melheim: Yes, and it's always inspiring to meet new people. Last week, cohort 5 arrived. 15 highly motivated leaders through the door, and a wide range from managing directors to those who are first-line managers, shift supervisors, team leaders and their equivalents in Sweden. We have also had people from the group executive management team involved. Something I also think is the strength of several of these initiatives here, both in leadership communication and in the basic module. In several of these cohorts, people from group executive management teams have sat together with a shift supervisor, a first-line manager, out there, around the same table, discussing the same issues, discussing the same type of starting point for a case, and with different perspectives, but where it really is very much about the same thing. Because leading in an executive management team or leading a team that is very close to production is fundamentally very much about the same thing because it's people we're talking about. So it's always interesting. Frode Stenstrøm: I would imagine that you too, even though you run the same module several times and you have those coaching conversations, you must be inspired by it. I think there may be things that come up in those conversations that you perhaps hadn't thought of yourselves, I would imagine. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Very much so! It's hugely inspiring, and very many of those who take part are highly motivated and have also started reading a little on their own, and they often come with quite a few tips. I get quite a few tips on how to use technology even better, for example. Now, that's not part of the module, but it comes up a little when we have those sessions, and it's hugely exciting to see how they share and learn from each other just as much as from us. Frode Stenstrøm: For the listeners' sake, could you say a little just about the scale of this. Now there are two, right? But you're running, you said, was it cohort 5? Terje Melheim: Cohort 5, we are now underway with the fifth cohort, which means that over the course of nearly a year and a half now, we have had more than 150 Moelven leaders taking part in a development program that is approximately 100 hours in scope in terms of what they participate in and the work they do themselves. And that is quite substantial in this context. And in addition, the leader's leader takes part in a separate program that also involves quite a few hours. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: In the communication module, we are about to complete round 4, by then 280 leaders and subject-matter specialists will have completed it, and it is approx. 20 working hours. Frode Stenstrøm: But that's for completing the program, and then there is presumably the training that follows afterward. Terje Melheim: That's absolutely right. Frode Stenstrøm: Then it's really natural to move on to the next topic: what effects have you seen? Because when you make this type of investment, and it really is a substantial investment, it's not something you can just say was launched as a small side project as well. Then we were underway, so to speak; quite a few hours go into this, and I think all companies will count the hours. If it's a manufacturing company, you have to take people out of production, if it's a clothing store, you have to take people out of the store; it also costs in terms of lost working hours on that side. So what effects have you seen from the work that has been done, apart from the recruitment element you mentioned? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: One that I'm really proud of is that in the employee survey this autumn, we saw for the first time that the feedback rating, “I feel that I receive regular feedback from my immediate manager,” has increased. And that's something we practice a lot. I think it may be one of the most important areas I can teach: how do you give good, specific, positive feedback? And then they practice it even more practically in the basic module as well. So that's really exciting. Terje Melheim: Yes, and I think it's important that these things reinforce each other, and practicing feedback is something I think is only beneficial to do in several sessions; we know that. We also see from our employee survey that the score leaders give themselves on their own leadership, and the corresponding score employees give their leaders, are beginning to converge. That means the discrepancy is narrowing; there is greater alignment between what employees experience and what leaders believe they, in a sense, deliver through their leadership. And I think that's because we are in the process of—first of all, I think that when employees score their leaders higher, it is hopefully also because they feel that, professionally, they are led by leaders who take their leadership responsibilities very seriously, and who ensure that they feel involved, including through the specific feedback they receive. But also because the leaders have probably gained somewhat better self-awareness as well. In that leadership is something that may be a somewhat bigger picture than what I have seen before. And that my role as a leader may also involve a few more things than what I may initially have thought it would entail. that it has become an awareness-raising process. And I think some of this awareness-raising is important. And then we hear many stories from those who tell us that we have become more confident in the leadership role in a different way than before. Others say that we conducted conversation training for difficult conversations. The following week, I went out and had many difficult conversations. I had training the week before I was going out to do this and compete in exactly the same thing. Then we have also created a sense of security and we have created a framework that also makes it possible to develop within it. But measuring leadership development is extremely difficult. So we cannot put a monetary value on it. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And I also think it is good when we are out and hear stories such as, I feel that my manager has become more curious about me. I find that many managers make contact much more often before they are about to initiate processes, to get advice on how to do this well. That people have become much more aware that it is actually wise to establish a structure. It is wise to think about the target groups here. It is wise to think about what feelings this process creates among my employees. And that did not happen to the same extent before. Terje Melheim: No, and it is also interesting that some managers, managers of managers, say that I have gained a common language with my managers. We can now sit down and talk about leadership in a different way than we did before, because we have a shared picture, a shared mental picture of what we are actually talking about. And we have now begun to talk about leadership as a discipline. Not just talk about operations and production anymore. Those are the kinds of feedback that are very gratifying to receive. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: We have seen that our managers have also become much more confident in running processes. Through both that and some other things, the dialogue cards, for example, they have become much better at being curious, at giving employees space, daring to get answers; simply asking a question when you do not know what the answer will be can feel a little vulnerable at first. Running processes and involving people well is something we have seen that many have become much, much more skilled at. Frode Stenstrøm: I am wondering whether you have seen effects you could not have dreamed of beforehand? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: I think it has been incredibly inspiring to see people who have been a little stuck, who have not been very curious, suddenly open up and dare to be vulnerable, dare to work on aspects of trust in their own leadership, and test new technology. I have seen that several have become much better at using Workplace, that they have practiced their own leadership, and then they did not necessarily need that technology in the training either, because they felt secure in themselves and dared to try and dared to fail. Terje Melheim: And then, by clarifying expectations for leadership, there will also be some who say that this leadership role is not right for me. Then they choose instead to move into perhaps a more professionally focused role that does not involve managing others. Because it is also very honest to say that being in a leadership role and being responsible for other people and following up with other people is not necessarily something that suits everyone. And acknowledging that to yourself as well, that no, perhaps it is more appropriate for me to have a different role, and recognizing that other professional roles are also incredibly important for us to succeed, is an important part of this journey for Moelven, both for us and for the business as a whole. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: That is also part of the reason why we also have the leadership communication module open to professionals, so they too can become better at communicating their field. Frode Stenstrøm: The next topic I would like to ask about is where you two go from here with this? Terje Melheim: We have many thoughts about things relating to emergency preparedness, crisis management, and HSE leadership. Perhaps we should have a dedicated executive management module. We need something for management teams. We have many perspectives here that are exciting to continue working on, but the other thing is also ... All those who are now going through the leadership development initiative in the leadership communication part of the foundation module, in leading other managers, have gained a common platform, a common language; what network, or how should we maintain that network, how should we ensure that they have forums where they can meet, and where they can be inspired both by each other and by professionals, as part of the leadership network whose competence we have now finished developing at Moelven. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: So it is certainly allowed to be curious at Moelven. As recently as today, we had a dialogue card in our department about what you would like to learn over the next year. There are many topics there that are also relevant for further learning. A lot of it is about how you use AI intelligently in communication, nudging, how we can get employees to be even more active through small measures. I got to take a course called speaking-up climate two years ago, I believe it is now. There are several topics there that we have not yet explored properly with our managers, including mastery culture, for example, and how I facilitate that. Even more specifically on active relocation. There are many specific topics on our list that we can develop further. And we are also working on creating more content for active employee engagement. Terje Melheim: Because we are completely dependent on being able to have initiatives that reach everyone. Not just the managers, but everyone. And that would typically be the kind of initiative that managers can bring to all employees. And things such as giving each other feedback, and facilitating how you can be a good ambassador for Moelven both at and outside work, so that we can also attract good people from outside. How is our reputation actually managed, and everyone must help take responsibility for how we are perceived by those around us. Those are examples of the kinds of small activities we want to create, small workshops that we want to create, which our managers can run with their employees, and where we need to help each other succeed. Frode Stenstrøm: Then the question is, have you linked the work you are doing now to emergency preparedness planning? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Yes, we have had a two-year project that we concluded last week. In which we created a new emergency preparedness plan that is very, very simple. We managed to get it down to 12 pages. Very proud of that. Frode Stenstrøm: I know it can be demanding Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Especially in a group where there are a great many considerations that must be taken into account. Where we use exactly the same principle that when we gather, it is to practice. So we have covered all the theory there. We have done that digitally through webinars. And then, when we have visited all our companies, it has been to practice. And then we practiced the framework. Everyone in the roles has performed their roles and carried out an exercise. And we have benefited greatly from that. We had an IT incident where we got to test it in practice and where we received feedback from IT, the group, and the companies saying that this went much better, because now we have practiced. Looking at how we prepare those in the emergency preparedness role who have decision-making authority, can we ensure that they receive good training, we can do that through the module. And then, for the other staff roles we have defined, we are creating a dedicated training program available on Workplace in the Knowledge Library, so it is available digitally. That gives people the opportunity to study the theory on their own, followed by annual exercises. Terje Melheim: And then it will also be about things that are general and transferable; that is, some of the perspectives within communication and leadership, and clear leadership, that are important in an emergency preparedness session will also be important in other sessions. So it is also about being able to draw good parallels and connections between the various modules and the various initiatives. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: It was also no problem getting enough registrations for the media training module, which we are running tomorrow. There, we practice the scenarios that are also used in emergency preparedness exercises. That way, you get to practice how I would respond if the media asked me these questions, and we have also chosen to run that internally. Because we know our managers, we know how we can challenge them, we know which scenarios are important for them to practice. And we have received very good feedback in the evaluations there, after we began tailoring it. Frode Stenstrøm: When they have done all this work, they may have used some technology. Have there been any obstacles, or have you used any learning platforms you mention Workplace, but how have you managed to facilitate the learning process in practical terms? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: We use Workplace to communicate with everyone. I've had very large groups, so I've used Workplace because it is also available to team leaders or others who may not use Teams as actively. And I know that for the basic module, Teams has been what I brought together in one place with the different cohorts. Terje Melheim: In addition, in the learning groups, we have businesses that are spread across quite large geographical distances, so there you also depend on using technology to collaborate between these meetings. Because in addition to being connected with your own manager, you are also part of a learning group that collaborates along the way, and technology becomes important there to ensure that the collaboration works well. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: One obstacle I've experienced is that those who aren't used to participating in somewhat larger Teams meetings have found it very challenging to speak up. So I've talked a little about the bystander effect, and how important it is to dare to speak up, and what meeting rules we have here. Actively using breakout rooms to split them into much smaller groups, preferably three or four people, so that they feel comfortable. But practicing makes it less scary. And practicing daring to speak up has also been quite important. Because we work across both locations and roles. Several of our factories are quite large, and several people set up Teams meetings instead of meeting in person, and then it's important to practice both speaking up and giving others the floor and seeing how it works. Frode Stenstrøm: Do you then practice this digital meeting facilitation, which is part of internal communication? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: No, it has become this unintended thing that we talk about. Because some of them dare to be vulnerable, which also impresses me, raising their hand and saying, I find this a little difficult. And then we can talk about it. Frode Stenstrøm: We'll finish with the final question for those who are listening to this and who may have a small role in a small company and are passionate about leadership development. Could you give them some advice on how they can approach this type of issue and perhaps sit there a year and a half later and look back at the effects you've seen? Terje Melheim: I think perhaps one of the wisest things Moelven did when it got started was to run a fairly broad involvement process. Because when they started with the workshop that could be called Moelven's active employee engagement, they could say, hand on heart, that this is by Moelven people, for Moelven people. And as part of the groundwork behind it, they had managed to look at what the current situation is, what the ambition is, and how we will get from where we are today to where we want to be. And working with and acknowledging that working with culture takes time, and there will probably be a number of measures you need to take for us to move forward with it. But, the best way to get something done, It's to begin. Frode Stenstrøm: That's often the case. But I think you may have realized, or known in advance, that this isn't so much a project as it is a line management task and a long-term undertaking. It's not as though they're going to create a product in two months and then be done with it. They're going to keep doing this and make it permanent, really, from what I hear. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Absolutely Terje Melheim: That's true. It's about working with cultural perspectives. It's really about working with values. And if you're going to work with values, then it's something that ... It will always be there as the most important thing when you're making decisions, right? When you find yourself in some situation and have to make a choice. If you're then firmly grounded in both the company's and your own values, and confident in that: Then you'll probably make a good choice. And as we say to the staff, again tomorrow, we are the sum of all the small and large choices each and every one of us makes every single day. That's really how it is. We face a lot of choices every day, and if we have a good platform from which to make those choices, then the sum of all the choices will probably also be good. Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: And then I hope that if you're in a somewhat smaller organization, and regardless of whether it's about leadership development or other fields, you dare to teach others, that you dare to look at what expertise we have here so we can learn from each other, because our communication module started as a desire to teach the expertise we already have, but in a slightly more structured form. And I feel that we have a great deal of expertise at Moelven and that it has become easier to share it, it has become easier to talk about what we can do and that people shouldn't be so afraid of it. Try something small first, start with some webinars like you do at ProsessPilotene, for example, start with the things we're really good at and begin practicing that, and then you often become curious about what else I can learn here, for example leadership. Terje Melheim: But this matter of retaining ownership yourself... I think that may be the most important thing we can offer, that is, what at least I, based on the process we've been through, can offer as advice. Retain ownership. Perhaps you'll need external expertise. Perhaps you'll need external capacity to be able to realize your ambition. But retain ownership yourself. Frode Stenstrøm: I've heard quite a few companies say that we're a company with ten employees, we can't afford this. Terje Melheim: Can you afford not to? Frode Stenstrøm: Yes, exactly? If there's one thing you could say to people who feel that management sucks, or that you have poor internal communication in the company, what would your final piece of advice be to those listeners? Ida Langdalen Kristiansen: Ask for a meeting agenda, and practice giving positive feedback, because that's something you can do as a colleague, and then your manager will see that, wow, this was smart, I'm going to start doing that. Terje Melheim: I really like the saying that responsibility is something you take, not something you're given. If everyone in a role defines what I should actually take responsibility for in my role? What questions should I ask? How can I challenge things? How can I use what I know and what I want to develop in myself so that we can improve together? I think everyone can play a role here, and then it's about taking responsibility for what you can introduce in your role. Frode Stenstrøm: And with those words, I would like to thank both of you, Terje and Ida, for your contributions to today's episode. You both come from Moelven Industrier. This podcast is produced by Prosesspilotene, which increases the value of your customers through the use of Microsoft technology and works with the business processes of marketing, sales, service and project management. Our analytics team can help you with artificial intelligence, insights and analytics, and the collaboration team can create websites, customer portals and customer clubs. The person responsible for this episode is me, Frode Stenstrøm. The project manager is Odd-Bjørg Berge. We welcome your questions and feedback on LinkedIn and our YouTube channel. Wishing everyone better business processes, until next time.